In Season 4 of Dark Winds, the gang is back together as members of the Navajo Tribal Police as Joe Leaphorn (Zahn McClarnon), Jim Chee (Kiowa Gordon), and Bernadette Manuelito (Jessica Matten) all head to Los Angeles in search of a missing girl from the reservation. We sat down with Gordon and Matten to discuss all that’s happened so far this season, from the true start of their romantic relationship, the challenges they both face this season, and the deep inner turmoil that Chee finds himself in. 

Well, they’re doing it – Bern said the word ‘relationship!’ Since you two are such good friends in real life, it must have been so exciting to dive in headfirst into this relationship this season! But also, kind of weird? 

Kiowa Gordon: Oh yeah. 

Jessica Matten: I think it was in Episode 2 [that Zahn directed] where we shot this scene where Kiowa has to flirt with me, and Zahn was like, "Cut!" He was like, "Look at Jess. Is she hard to flirt with? Come on." So, he starts giving tips to Kiowa like, "I don't know, maybe put your hand on the wall like this and get in like this." [Both laugh] Zahn's old school and his version of flirting was hilarious. 

KG: I was just being very rigid because I'm like, "I don't know how to act around the love my life." We were also trying to have a conversation about our relationship, so it was just awkward on many levels. 

It’s weird because you two are such good friends and you have more of a sibling vibe between each other. So, I get it! 

KG: Oh yeah, we had a separation room. [Laughs] We needed some time apart. 

JM: He’ll be like this close and I’ll turn to him and be like “You’re in my comfort zone!” [Laughs] 

KG: Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, sorry!" I feel I pushed into that energy. I'm like, "Why is there a force field to get through?" 

Well, it seems that Bern and Jim are doing their best to communicate with each other. Obviously, they're still hitting walls, but it all feels very realistic. Some of the harder conversations that they have in Episodes 1 & 2 feel like they could still happen in 2026. Especially the disconnect that they're having around how to express emotions. There’s a lot of frustration, but a lot of intimacy there too. 

KG: I think Chee sees that Bern needs his support. So sometimes I just shut up and go sit with her and let her know that I'm just here for her. 

JM: Chee is also aware of the traumas that she's just recently experienced, and he understands a lot without saying words. As much as he's like, "I don't know what you need," he does know what she needs. They need space and time to process and cope, because at the end of the day, regardless of their relationship, he's a cop too. He carries a lot of trauma within him too. 

KG: There's a lot of subtext there that we can convey quietly rather than trying to spill it all out from our guts. Because back then it was really hard to communicate directly if you weren't raised that way. 

There’s a lot going on emotionally with Chee this season. He’s still not really embracing Diné traditions even though he’s back on the rez. Add to that his history with and memories of LA —his emotions are really triggered and heightened this season! Both Leaphorn and Bern are trying to get him to use ceremonies and Diné traditions to help him find balance... but he isn’t biting! 

KG: It’ll happen! Chee is just like, "Poo, poo to all that." It comes to a head later in the season and then he’s like, "Yeah, maybe you guys were right!" 

JM: When you suppress those kinds of emotions, it all needs to rise to the surface eventually. So, we're saying ‘ghost sickness’ is symbolism — it’s the demons that you’re not expressing and letting out. So physically you see it coming out in ‘ghost sickness’ form, which is a very cool way to translate what the Navajo people believe to be true. 

KG: Yeah, the way it's festering in Chee is intense. It’s a great visual representation of it all that the audience gets to see. 

JM: Yeah, it's a very cool way to show what the Navajo people believe, and what all human beings experience — it's psychosomatic. When you don’t express your inner most feelings, it shows up in your body in different forms, right? 

KG: Yes, and it can be damaging! 

The body-mind connection seems to be a big theme in Season 4 for every character. There’s a real throughline there. As an officer Bern has always shown her commitment to the youth on the rez and is always deeply involved in trying to bring positivity and connection with every young person she encounters. This season that connection is with Billie. Jess, you’re a lot like Bern and you’ve done SO much work with young people through your organization the Counting Coup Indigenous Film Academy (CCIFA). 

JM: Bern is definitely trying to save Billie and at the same time she’s trying to save that little girl on the rez within her too. Billie is a version of Bernadette's own ghost, if you think about it. So, there’s that ‘ghost sickness’ theme underlying things again. 

Yeah, AMC has been so incredible helping me with my film academy. We got Tales from the Rez up with AMC’s help! Tales of the Rez was produced by APTN (Aboriginal Peoples Television Network), and a bunch of people coming off the rez who were living in third world conditions worked on the show. They have uranium problems with their tap water, so they literally don't have clean drinking water. We created a documentary a couple years ago that premiered at TIFF (Toronto International Film Festival) about that. 

KG: Boil Alert! 

JM: Yes! Check it out. So, yes, it's so cool to portray a character that has passions that directly translate to my real-life passions. And it's just amazing to have a network helping to support a show like Dark Winds but also supporting my personal endeavors and passions! Dark Winds doesn’t only uplift me, but it helps me uplift an entire community of people. Sometimes you have moments in life where you're sitting in your office, and you don't know if what you're doing is actually moving the pendulum in any direction. I say this as someone with a corporate background. So, it’s really the best feeling in the world being able to help another person. I want to remind everyone that by supporting us, this show and our endeavors you’re actually saving lives in our Indigenous communities — and that's the best gift on the planet, in my opinion! 

It’s super powerful. The pipeline that’s been created between CCIFA and Dark Winds, having folks from the academy working on the set of Dark Winds is a really amazing thing!

JM: Yeah, and it's so cool to get AMC's continued blessings with that. And now that we've had the interns on set a few times, I could see that they're just so excited to be there, but I feel like we can be more specific with utilizing their time properly. So that's why I'm going to be mentoring them this upcoming season with my film academy, just so that I understand them individually and give them the best introductions to their interests! If they want to work in the art department, I'll introduce them to our heads, the cinematographer, the wardrobe department, etc. so we can be more intentional about which area everyone is working in. 

What can you tease out about the rest of the season and what team #ManChee is going to encounter in Los Angeles? 

KG: Ooooo! #ManChee will encounter a little spiciness. 

JM: I'd like you to say The Fuego. 

KG: The Fuego? Yeah, yeah! We're in flames as a team, and I'm going to have fun with it. Chee is just kind of razzin' everyone like, "Yo, you're in my town now! I grew up here. I hate this place. But also, I know it. So, you guys have to take my lead on this to show you guys how capable I am of this. But also, dang, I wish I could just get over this and just give you guys big hugs." There's a lot of sexy outfits we get to wear, parties we go to, some alcohol and drugs partaking, and a couple of little hallucinations. 

There's a lot of lava lamps too, guys! 

KG: A lot of lava lamps! [Laughs] Yeah, that was on purpose. Everybody's like, "There's so many lava lamps in every scene with Chaske [Spencer, aka Sonny]." 

Specifically in Sonny's apartment. I was like, "Wow!" Some of them were huge! 

KG: Sonny's a good character that way. There's so many layers to that guy too. Chaske just nails that part so well. Thank you for the reminder though because now when anybody asks me about, "What can we expect for the rest of Season 4?" I’m just going to say, "Lava lamps!"

Dark Winds airs on Sundays at 9/8c on AMC. Episodes are available to stream on amc.com (with a cable provider login), and the AMC apps for mobile and devices. You can also watch episodes via AMC+ at amcplus.com or through the new AMC+ app available on iPhone, iPad, Android, Fire TV, Apple TV, and Roku plus Samsung and Vizio smart TVs. AMC+ can also be streamed through a variety of providers, including AppleTV, Prime Video Channels, DirectTV, Dish, Roku Channel, Sling, and Xfinity. Sign up for AMC+ now.