In Season 4 of Dark Winds, the gang is back together as members of the Navajo Tribal Police as Joe Leaphorn (Zahn McClarnon), Jim Chee (Kiowa Gordon), and Bernadette Manuelito (Jessica Matten) all head to Los Angeles in search of a missing girl from the reservation. Right from the start of the season we know they’re up against a villain unlike any other we’ve seen thus far. Irene Vaggan (Franka Potente) is an expert assassin also in pursuit of the missing girl, all while she feeds her own obsession with Leaphorn. We sat down with Potente to discuss all that’s happened so far this season, from capturing the subtleties of Vaggan’s inner workings, to evoking her unique childhood, and exploring her deepest motivations. Vaggan is the villain that keeps on giving. 

We've seen some pretty terrifying villains in the past three seasons of the show, but Vaggan is a whole different type of big bad. What did you first think when you read the scripts, and were you already a fan of the show before joining the cast? 

I didn't know the show, but that's just because I barely ever get to watch TV. I’ve seen some of the big ones, like Succession and Breaking Bad. But honestly, I can’t even remember what I got to read at first. For me, I think it was more about the conversations I had with [showrunner] John Wirth who I immediately loved. I've played villains in the past and I love it. To me they’re the most interesting characters because we get to explore the kind of stuff that we don't really know about. There are no rules or boundaries really — or maybe just not as many as with normal people! You get to go on a show and kind of mess with everybody. I really like that! And it seemed like incredible quality, which was confirmed as soon as I watched the show. 

I’ve never been so creeped out by the suggestion of a smile. So much of the work that you do with this character is quiet movement, silent observation. You don’t have much dialogue until Episode 3, but at that point we really get a sense of how Vaggan's obsession with Leaphorn has blossomed. When she rants about “men nowadays” it becomes clear that she’s fetishized and fantasized about Joe and what he represents since the moment she saw him. 

Totally, oh yeah. I guess the challenge is always, as actors, we are aware we have a camera on us. We don't want to seem aware, but we are aware and because of that when we're not talking, we have constant dialogue running quietly in our minds. It’s kind of a good time for a practice leap, so to speak. You can have all sorts of things that you can try out in your brain and see if it feels right or if it doesn't. 

I think this whole thing about Vaggan creating this Joe narrative… well I think that we all do a version of that on the daily. Everyone who’s been through a bad breakup knows these weird internal conversations you have with yourself where you feel blindsided or whatever. All this chaos is a result of different narratives. In this case, this narrative obviously has a lot to do with Leaphorn, but it also has a lot to do with how Irene thinks of herself and the person that she will become when they're together. It's this weird, undefined zone in between ‘now and when we are together’ or ‘when he finally understands that he loves me,’ right? 

These are the types of narratives, of course, dialed down, that I think as humans we create in any kind of relationship, friendship, etc. It's just that Irene constantly lives in that. That's like her 24/7 living space. There's no balance for her. 

Speaking of living spaces, in Episode 4 we learn where Irene lives... and who she lives with. The reveal that her grandfather is a Nazi was so satisfying because everything about Vaggan – from the way she carries herself, to her profession, to her taste in music and fashion – it was all hinting at an origin story linked to that time in history. I can’t help but wonder – what was Vaggan’s childhood like? Was she doomed to become this killer from the start? Did you try and answer these questions to create a backstory for her to help create a foundation for your performance? 

These are great questions! But weirdly, the question, ‘was she always doomed to be this person’ for my work with her, it had no value. I didn’t think that mattered. I guess the answer is maybe. Who knows? We'll never know! Were you supposed to be you? Was I supposed to be me? I guess in therapy and throughout our lives, we try to figure that out until we realize, well, let's just work with what we’ve got. 

I do think she was raised by men, Nazis, like her father and her grandfather. And they were not very nice people. Her childhood was completely void of any kind of affection. So, it's safe to say that Irene at this point, when she sees Leaphorn, probably is a virgin to a lot of things that have to do with feeling and intimacy. 

There was this one thing I discussed with John [Wirth] that was something I remembered from my childhood in Germany. There’s a German writer called Karl May. Like Herman Hess, who wrote Siddartha without ever having been to India, Karl May had never met anyone Native American but wrote incessantly about them. He wrote what amounted to a tele novella between a cowboy, a white man, and a Native American chief. It was the story of their ‘friendship.’ Germans loved it so much they made it into movies. As a kid, I loved those movies. I didn't know any better. 

So just as backstory, there's this very strange affection and obsession, especially during Nazi Germany, with Germans infantilizing Native Americans. I think that perspective is within Irene and she has those books in the bunker and reads from them to her grandfather. 

Working with the legend Udo Kier must have been so exciting for you – not only as an actress but as a German! Can you talk a little bit about crafting that demented grandfather/granddaughter relationship on screen? 

Yeah, Udo was wonderful. I suggested him as my grandfather! 

Oh, fantastic. I didn't know that detail! 

Yeah. I met him... my God probably over 20 years ago. I interviewed him for Interview Magazine all those years ago. That's how I met him. He’s so free and liberated as an artist. He's so playful. You watch him and it's just a gift because you just plug in and it's like strong current that takes you wherever. 

They have this very strange love-hate relationship. When Irene is with him, she becomes this little girl that's like, "Yes, sir!" She does whatever he tells her to do because he's this important figure in her life that tethers her to somewhat of a reality, or some sort of a family. She's the most soft and vulnerable with him. When she's out there away from him, she's just almost like a robot. 

What can you tease out about the challenges that Vaggan will face in completing her mission as the season moves towards its conclusion? 

For Irene, she’s been tasked with finding and killing that girl, but the crazy thing is that's not a big task for her. She has a name; she has a face. It's kind of annoying for her. She's hard to get! 

But then everything shifts. Suddenly, Leaphorn is pushing into frame and that’s distracting to her. I think for her, the dance she’s moving to means her actions sometimes impact Leaphorn in a way that she doesn't want because she loves him and she doesn't want him to be angry with her. That’s the fine line that, without her having any morals, she's still trying to figure out. 

I think the big underlying question for Vaggan, and one of the most interesting for me as an actor is, Vaggan questioning ‘how am I different?’ It's a question for all of us. ‘Who am I and why am I different?’ Especially when she thinks about Leaphorn having a wife that left him and she can't quite understand that. She’s trying to squeeze herself into that relationship, and she wonders, why did he pick someone like her and not me? I think that's very unsettling for her.

Dark Winds airs on Sundays at 9/8c on AMC. Episodes are available to stream on amc.com (with a cable provider login), and the AMC apps for mobile and devices. You can also watch episodes via AMC+ at amcplus.com or through the new AMC+ app available on iPhone, iPad, Android, Fire TV, Apple TV, and Roku plus Samsung and Vizio smart TVs. AMC+ can also be streamed through a variety of providers, including AppleTV, Prime Video Channels, DirectTV, Dish, Roku Channel, Sling, and Xfinity. Sign up for AMC+ now.